Men’s Health Foundation Podcast Episode 9 Transcript

From Self-Love to Ethical Non-Monogamy: Relationship Advice with Preston Lopez, LMFT

David:  Welcome back to the Men’s Health Foundation podcast. Marc and I today have a new guest with us, Preston Lopez. He's our new behavioral health specialist here at Men's Health Foundation, bringing up a really interesting topic for us today. Polyamory and ethical non-monogamy. Preston, I wanted to first welcome you to Men's Health Foundation and welcome you to the podcast.

Preston: Thank you. Thank you. It's really nice to be here. I've been listening to the podcast. [David: Thank you. Marc: Thank you.] So it's nice to be here and actually join you two in conversation.

David: And I wanted to ask you too, you know, coming to Men’s Health Foundation before we get into the polyamory of it all, you know what brought you to MHF? And tell us about your background that, you know, led up to this point.

Preston: Yeah. Thank you. Well, I got my degree in marriage and family therapy back in 2011, and at that point, I was working at a nonprofit. I was doing residential work, at a place called Boys Republic. So I was working with adolescents. These kids all came out of juvenile hall and were all wards of the court.

So it was a difficult line of work, but I loved it. It's where I really got in my, I kind of, like, cut my teeth, so to speak, in the profession. Really learned a lot. I took some time away from counseling and the clinical route and did some various things. I worked at the Humane Society, Pasadena Humane Society.

Shout out. And worked a little grocery co-op, did some various things, did some traveling, did some lock down, and then, and then I decided to get back on the clinical route. And so for the past four plus, four or so years, I've been doing therapy again. And much of that has been in private practice. So I'm coming primarily out of a private practice setting and that was a great situation. And it also was kind of isolating.

David: Tell us about it.

Preston: Yeah, yeah. And so, I was working at home remotely, seeing all my clients via telehealth, and I'm just really excited to be part of an organization, part of a team again, and particularly one like Men's Health, where I can be a fuller version of myself. Right. And embody and express and celebrate my queerness and in a way that I know is also welcome and celebrated, so.

David: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, before we started talking here, I know the three of us were just talking about that and just, you know, how much we appreciate that at a place like Men's Health, which is, you know, I think one of the things that we also try to make as part of the experience for the people that come here, of course, is to make sure that they feel that kind of safe space vibe.

And I love the well-roundedness of the experiences you had leading up to that. I think that would help me just like, I don't know, have a richer perspective. Yes. You know? Thank you. All those experiences that you come here with. Well-rounded,

Preston: I like that term. I've kind of called it meandering at times, but I like well-rounded.

David: So, you know, you came to us with this, you know, suggestion of the polyamory and ethical non-monogamy. You know, which I thought was a great thing to discuss maybe here on Valentine's Day, we're thinking about relationships and the ways that those can, those can, you know, be happy and healthy and exist and what's possible. The first thing I wanted to ask you is, just your experience, you know, as a behavioral health or mental health professional, helping folks, you know, who are curious about this or experiencing this, just so that people get a background of, like, you know, how you came to or how you kind of come across this kind of experience.

Yeah. Well, as I said, I'm a marriage and family therapist, right? In my training so I basically am trained in helping people navigate their relationships, right? Build healthy, sustainable relationships, communicate well and effectively, and so in practicing as a marriage family therapist, particularly in private practice, and I was in, the East Bay area up in Northern California.

Preston: I mean, you got to, you got to be familiar with the topic. You got to get familiar with the topic, right? Because it's, it's, becoming more and more mainstream, right? And, so it's, I've helped a lot of people who either are already practicing polyamory or ethical non-monogamy, you know, and/or people who have been in sort of long term monogamous relationships and who are then looking to open up and explore what that might look like and feel like for them.

So it's been a real honor to work with so many folks and support them in their journey and process and the, the joys and the challenges of it. So, yeah, that's, that's kind of how I have come to it.

David: And, you know, as we're talking about things, like we use that acronym ENM and we talk about polyamory, some of these other, I just kind of want to get, sort of the glossary or the vocabulary out of the way. Just the jargon here. [Preston: Yeah.] How do you define what ethical non-monogamy is?

Preston: Great. Yeah. So my framework or understanding of it is that ethical non-monogamy is going to be a sort of the umbrella term, right? It's, it's an alternative relationship structure to, maybe a more traditional monogamous frame, right, that says one person, one person, we commit, we’re together and we expect one another to meet the romantic sexual needs that I may have, right? Ethical non-monogamy says, hey, that's great, but that doesn't work for me or that doesn't work for everybody. So we're going to explore alternative structures. So, right, then there's polyamory, which is a really common term which typically I think most people understand is being, somebody being open to multiple romantic relationships, right? There's, like an open relationship, right? That's a form of, ethical non-monogamy as well, which is typically more like, hey, I have a primary partner. And then we're open to fun and or casual experiences on the side, but typically we're not having a more like, romantic, committed relationships out here, right? It's not like this is our primary relationship, there's other forms, right?

Like there's relationship anarchy, which you may have heard of, which is super fascinating and interesting framework where basically people say, hey, I don't put any kind of priority on any particular relationship, right? So I look at all of my relationships with all humans as being equally important and valid, and I want to see myself as being part of, like, this web of relationships as opposed to like, having any kind of, hierarchy.

Yeah. Exactly. [David: Yeah, yeah.] So those are some of the common terms. You'll hear things like solo poly, right, where somebody is like, I live independently, I live alone, I don't have like, a nesting partner that I, you know, build and settle in with, and, but I have multiple romantic partners, you know, throughout my, in my life. So that's a, that's another, you know, framework that we'll often hear about.

David: It's so interesting because to me, I mean, there's a, there's a propensity to think, oh, this is like such a modern concept. But then I also think about, I mean, from what I understand, and I'd love your insights on this question. You know, just, you know, how far back we know that this is something that people have been doing.

And to get a sense of I think sometimes when people think of it as something new, there's a sense it's like, do we know if this is something that works for people, for people that haven't experienced yet, what would you say?

Preston: That is such a good question, I love it. One of the people who has really informed my line of thought is Kim TallBear. She's an indigenous academic and writer and lecturer. And, she talks about monogamy in large part coming with, colonization to, you know, the Americas and that, you know, indigenous cultures had very different frameworks of being in relationship. And so I think in a lot of ways we can trace non-monogamous relationships way, way, way back, right? And so a lot of times where we will talk about nontraditional relationships, structures, but as if these are new. [David: Right.] Right? Exactly. And that monogamy is like the, the, traditional method, but that really I think that there's a lot of different cultures throughout history that have looked at relationships very differently and have not had such a strict definition of partnership and relationality.

David: Sure. Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. And I feel like I've, I've read a lot to the same effect. How about, you know, coming up with the question of, you know, who this would be a good idea for? And I would assume it'd be a good idea for people that are maybe interested in it. Right, but are there other qualifiers that you think would, come to mind as far as, like who ethical, non-monogamy is, who's a good candidate for that?

Preston: Yeah. Great question as well. So I first want to be really clear that, that monogamy works really well for a lot of people, right? I, I've met some people who are like very staunch non-monogamous who basically are like “Monogamy is…” “…the problem!” “…Bondage! And is a problem.” Yeah, exactly. So I don't come from that point of view, right? I think that monogamy works really well for a lot of people.

And, and that's great, but it's not for everybody. And so for those who find that they want to explore alternatives, that they have curiosity for or that they are just recognizing that, hey, having one partner and expecting that person to meet all of the varying needs that I have for intimacy and connection, whether that's purely emotional or whether that's sexual, it feels unfair to them or it just doesn't feel realistic to put all those expectations on one person. And so they're willing and open to seeing if they can create a situation where they can explore those needs getting met elsewhere. I would say that it works best for folks who are good communicators, right? People who have good boundaries are willing to set and establish good boundaries.

Because there's a lot of that, right? Relationships take work. Relationships take work. And if you have multiple relationships, then there's more work. So I think being able and willing to, whether you already have those skills or whether you're willing to build those skills around communication and having difficult conversations, that's a big part of it. You know, sometimes you have to have difficult conversations, difficult emotions come up, and being able to talk about them vulnerably and transparently, I think is really, really valuable and really important.

David: Yeah, I was interested to hear to, talking about the idea of like setting boundaries. I think a lot of folks, when they would think about polyamory or ethical nonmonogamy, there's a sense of like the, what most people think of as the boundary is you have one partner. It's like, well, we don't have that. So what boundaries would exist in polyamory or ethical nonmonogomy? Like, I'm trying to think of folks that maybe, who maybe aren't experiencing this right now.

Maybe they'd have a little less like lived experience with this. So, you know, speaking to those folks, what are some good examples of like, the important boundaries to set and this kind of, experience?

Preston: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, I would say it's about setting and finding the boundaries that work for you. [David: Okay.] Right. To me, there's no, there's no cookie cutter right way to do this, right? So different partnerships and different folks in relationship have very different boundaries and agreements, right? And those agreements might be around how much time you spend with other partners, right? Like say we're in a committed partnership and, you know, we spend our, we make sure that our weekends are dedicated to just us, right? So we don't go on dates. We don't have other connections on the weekends. Like, those are just, that's just for us. That's like one small example, right? But finding those agreements that work, that create a structure where both people feel safe, where both people are in agreement or all people, Right, not just two are in agreement,

I think is really important. So various things to keep in mind, right? Boundaries around sexual health. Having good quality conversations around, whether it's being on PrEP and DoxyPEP and using protection, right? These are important boundaries to agree upon to make sure that all partners involved are on the same page and know what the expectations are.

Being able to talk about, you know, say there's again, there's a partnership that is starting to open up their relationship. You know, some people are fine with people with a partner going on dates and building more of a serious relationship with somebody. Some people are like, no, that doesn't work for us. We really just want, you know, more casual encounters on the side, instead of, like, building actual relationships. [David: Okay.] So those types of conversations I think are so important to have, just like, what are the expectations? Make sure we're on the same page. Make sure that both parties or all parties get to check in with themselves around what their needs are, because ultimately, I think this is about is an exploration of being really honest and transparent with what our needs are and then being willing to advocate for our own needs in a healthy way.

Marc: That's good. Speaking of advocating for yourself, I know sometimes in relationships, so whatever type it is there can be feelings of jealousy and things like that. So when that comes up what can you say about how to navigate that? And maybe is there something that you can balance jealousy with as you're going through this?

Preston: Yeah. Well, I would say first and foremost that jealousy is, is very common. It's very natural, right? It's, if somebody who's practicing non-monogamy finds themselves feeling jealous, it doesn't mean it's not for them. Right? [Marc: Yeah.] It, it just means that there's something internally that is needing some attention and it's good to explore what that might be.

So you know I think jealousy comes in different forms. Well first of all, it's usually a whole conglomeration of different emotions from fear and anger and sadness, kind of all jumbled up in there but it can come, you know, I think often it comes from an experience of not getting one's own needs met and then recognizing that a partner or other partners are getting certain needs met.

“Wow. You're going out and you're getting your needs met and you're connecting with this person and meeting their needs. But I'm over here and my needs aren't getting met. And I'm feeling lonely and I'm feeling sad about that.” And now I'm feeling frustrated about it, right? So I think being, using jealousy as an opportunity to check in with, your needs getting met or not and be really transparent about that.

I think jealousy can also come from certain forms of insecurity, right? Whether that's, internal insecurity of I'm measuring myself against other people and I'm not feeling enough for my partner or partner's, right? That can be, a real indicator of like, hey, there's some parts of me that need some validation and some love and some attention, right?

And getting support, whether that's through friends, whether that's from partners, whether that's from a good therapist can be really, really valuable. And I think jealousy can also be rooted in a certain like insecurity in the relationship, right? Maybe full trust hasn't been built yet. And I don't really trust that my partner or partners are actually holding up their end of the bargain or keeping to the agreements that we have established.

Right? So there can be that insecurity that is relational, right? And so working to build trust right, working to build trust through clear communication, through transparent and vulnerable dialogue, through setting certain expectations and then allowing your partners to meet those expectations, right? Trust gets to be built. And I think in some of these ways, and we can start to overcome experiences of jealousy as well as there's this term compersion [Marc: Compersion.] which is this notion of I find joy or some satisfaction in seeing my partner or my partner's experience, joy and satisfaction, even if they are being satisfied elsewhere or they're getting needs met elsewhere, or they are finding love and joy and connection outside of our immediate connection, then I can celebrate them because I love them as an autonomous person.

I don't own them. I celebrate their individuality and their independence. And it's okay that they are making these various connections, right? So the more we can try to focus on the love that we have for our partners and that we want to see them happy, I think that can also really help be a solve to some of those jealous feelings that end up coming up.

David: Mmhm. [Marc: That's great!] It is, you know, do you have any, like, advice for people how they can like, is there like a practical, like tip for how do people, like, approach that?

Preston: To me, I always fall back on getting support. Sure. Talking it out right. Getting support. Don't try to do it alone. [David: Okay.] I mean, I think that's so much of what we're talking about here, right? Is that we don't have to do anything alone. We don't want to do this alone. We can get support. So, being able to talk it out, getting a good therapist, whether that's a, relational therapist, a couples therapist who can help you navigate those difficult feelings when they come up, whether it's talking to friends and people who are supportive and understanding of these, these forms of relationships, talking about it with your partners, being vulnerable and honest about that. But then, you know, as far as, like, some real practical, you know, things you can do, I think literally like just writing it down. Writing it down. Writing down what I'm feeling.

I'm feeling this way. Right. I want to celebrate and love and support my partner. So let me also write down, you know, what I love about them, why I care about them so much, and why I want to see them, see them happy. I think sometimes just kind of getting it out on paper and not just having it floating around, amorphously and spinning in my thought process can be really valuable.

David: Do you think it has any more value to write it down versus like, typing?

Preston: Oh, typing works just as well.

David: Yeah? Okay.

Preston: Yeah yeah yeah. I'm a, I mean my journal is a running word document. You know, like I, I definitely, utilize that practice so much faster for me than trying to handwrite.

David: That's good. Okay. I love that. You know, what's funny about this to me is I feel like, some of these things kind of, I think, come up outside of the scope of just, like, healthy relationships.

Preston: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. That's, I like that you're bringing that up because I think that there's often so much of there has been a lot of stigma about non-monogamy. And, but when it comes down to it, what we realize is, like, we're all just human, doing human things and having these experiences and it's not, it's not just some wild romp. It's like, you know, real people having real connections and real emotions and, all the joys and challenges that come with it.

David: I want to talk about this stigma a little bit just to, like, acknowledge it. Yeah. I think that there's this sense, and I'm not sure how you would want to, unpack this, but, I do perceive that there's certainly a sense at times of, of judgment, for folks involved in this experience, or maybe a suspicion that it's, you know, that it's not something that anyone could sustain or be happy with and I wanted to just ask if you've observed some of those same stigmas or what stigmas you have observed and, you know, just what, from your perspective, as a mental health professional, you know, working, specializing in relationships, you know, maybe debunking some of those from what you've actually seen.

Preston: Yeah. Well, I would say that, first of all, ethical non-monogamy is not just a hall pass. [David: Yeah.] Right? To like, go do whatever. And I know you all had a really lovely conversation with Brandon about sex addiction and compulsive sexual behaviors. And, I want to be really clear that this isn't about just, you know, giving yourself a stamp of approval to go do whatever. If you are having struggles with sexual addiction or sexually compulsive behaviors, get some support, like, do some work around that. This is not about just saying, “Hey, go do whatever you want.” You know, even if that ends up hurting you and or hurting others. Right? So that's not what this is about. That's where I think that ethical piece really comes into play, right? That that this can be navigated in a really healthy, transparent way that really honors and respects everybody involved.

So in terms of the stigma, yeah, right. There's all kinds of judgment and stigma and, and I think that's starting to loosen, right? This is becoming a much more mainstream topic and experience. But it's still difficult, right? And like sharing with family or friends that you are living a non-monogamous lifestyle can be difficult. That can be a really vulnerable conversation.

I mean, it's a form of coming out. And so I think making sure that you have supportive community, like people in your life that do understand where you're coming from and what you're doing and why you're doing it. I think that's so important. And then knowing that, yeah, there probably will be judgments that come along the way. 

Right? People who don't understand, people who don't think it's sustainable. But I think more and more people are finding, especially as there's more and more resources and there's more and more open conversations, and there's more and more people who are experienced living the lifestyle and can support and mentor others who are now interested in it. You know, I think that we can build and I've seen people build really healthy, sustainable, polyamorous, non-monogamous relationships.

David: I wanted to ask about this notion of, one of the things that we had talked about before we started this episode was the idea of, like, emotional labor. And I wanted to ask you about that, just so I can, like, better understand it, because I think it's really interesting, and how that could maybe apply to, you know, ethical non-monogamy, but also, like, all relationships, it's just, it's a phrase that I'm not super familiar with so I wanted to ask you about.

Preston: Yeah. Yeah, I see this a lot in different relationships, in different ways, right? Where one person is able and willing to, let's say, initiate a difficult conversation. Okay. Right. That requires some emotional labor. You have to prepare yourself for it. You gotta, you know, sit your partner down and have that conversation. That takes work. What happens a lot in relationships is that, you know, one person is often more willing to do that than another. And if that is the case, it can create this real imbalance, right? Where, one person is sort of carrying the burden of having to, “Hey, we need to talk about this.” Right? “Hey, this is what I'm feeling right now. This is what's going on. I really need to be heard right now. Can you know, can we have this conversation.”

And the other person might have a little more of avoidant tendencies, right? And what ends up happening particularly in, in poly or non-monogamous relationships, is that the person who plays that role often plays that role in many different relationships, right? It's kind of how they orient themselves in relationships, and it can lead to burnout. It can lead to burnout and a real imbalance in the nature of their relationships. So I think when you're picking your partners, right, when you are exploring a relationship with somebody, trying to sort of suss out if this person is able to meet you there, is able to have these types of conversations with you. And then if you start finding that there's an imbalance in those types of dynamics, right, to be able to like, hey, how do we reintroduce balance here? I don't want to be the one who always has to like, do this work. I want us to do it together. I want us to hold it together.

Marc: Along those lines of, like, making sure that you are not taking all of the labor, emotional labor in the relationship, practically too, let's say, if someone, has never been in a polyamorous relationship and they're wondering of, how am I supposed to manage my time for others and for myself? And how can I prioritize everybody in an equitable way, including myself, so that I don't get burnt out?

Preston: So important! So important, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like, getting comfortable with disappointing people at times. [David and Marc: Ooh!] Felt that one, right? [laughter] Getting part and getting comfortable with, you know, disappointing people. I think that's really important because you're going to have to say no sometimes. You're not always going to be available. And people might have feelings about that. And that's okay. They're allowed to have those feelings, right? But yeah.

Really I think first and foremost your point about prioritizing your self-time. Right? Making sure you're tending to yourself. Do you spend time alone? Are you able to spend time alone? What is that like, right? Making that time for yourself. And then, and then when it comes to your relationship structures, right? Like let's say somebody has a more nested partner like, hey, this is the person that I am. You know, we're blending our finances.

We're living together and paying rent or buying a home or we're having kids, right? Like, how do we create situations where we're prioritizing us, right? And if we have other relationships on the side, how do we schedule this as such, right? That we make sure that our relationship is staying primary, right? So again, that can be, hey, we make sure that we have dinner together every night.

And then if somebody wants to go out and hang out with somebody else, great. Or it's weekends we spend together or we make sure holidays we, you know, we spend our holidays together, right? Whatever it might be. But again, just having open, frank conversations and then coming to mutual agreements like, hey, this is the expectation that we are going to prioritize this time with one another in order to sort of safeguard what it is that we have.

Marc: Okay. So it sounds like the approaches to time management will flow out of the circumstances between the partners, whether they're nested primary partners or things like that. [Preston: Yes.] There are different approaches that work for different situations.

Preston: Absolutely, absolutely. And again, yeah, and it's going to come down to what works, right? What works for you. What works for you and your partners. Maybe some partnerships don't need a whole lot, a lot of actual time together. And they are able to allot more time, you know, elsewhere. But they know that they have a solid base of commitment and partnership that feels good, that they can fall back on, right? So it's just about finding what time you can allocate where in a way that works. [Marc: Gotcha.] And there's going to be bumps along the way, right? Like it's, it's always a work in progress and process like.

David: Allow for that.

Preston: Yes you got to allow for it. You got to allow for the fact that, like, you're going to have to figure it out as you go. You're going to have to renegotiate your agreements with your partners. Right? Being able to sit down and have check ins and updates and, and update those agreements and those expectations? So valuable and so important. I think having regular check-ins is so valuable.

David: What's so funny to me, I feel like throughout all of this is that I feel like this is just good advice for all kinds of relationships.

Preston: Yes. Absolutely.

David: Yeah. And I think maybe that takes some of the stigma or like the mystique that might exist for some people of, polyamory or ethical non-monogamy to think that “Oh, okay. Well, the more that you talk about this, the more it's like, this doesn't, it doesn't seem as, like, different as I would have expected it to be from monogamous relationships in some ways.

Preston: Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. Again, it's just, the non-monogamous folk aren't some kind of different breed, right? Like we’re all humans who relate similarly. I do think that it affords a really interesting opportunity to explore oneself in different relationships, different parts of me get activated in different, say, with my best friend Bethany, right? Or my other best friend, Paul, or with my husband Michael, right?

Like just certain parts of me feel more comfortable in ways that I express myself and the dynamic that we create, get, get to come to life there. And so I think that in non-monogamous or poly relationships, we get to explore those different parts of ourselves in relationship, sexually, right? One sexual partner might have certain, you know, like, this is where I explore this form of connection. And over here I get to, like, explore a completely different part of myself. [David: Yeah.] And this because this person has a mutual interest over here and I get to like, tap into that right and explore that. So yeah, I find that people really have, within this framework, just get to explore themselves in some really, really interesting ways.

David: Okay. Yeah. Do you have, any like, advice as we start to kind of wrap up on the time that we have today, for people listening, and in like, you know, final messages for folks here?

Preston: I mean, I know I've already said it, but, community. Build community, right? Find like-minded people like, that's so valuable and so important. I think finding a skilled therapist or a mentor of some sort, somebody who can, like, actually support you and facilitate through the specifics, I think is really, really valuable and so important because there haven't been a lot of, we don't have a lot of role models of this.

Right? Like it's still, again, when it comes to it being more socially acceptable, it's very new. And so, there's going to be challenges that come up. Right? There's going to be difficulty. This isn't just, it's not all fun and games, right? It's not all fun and games. Some difficult stuff's going to get turned up. And it's really important to make sure you're getting support through that. Yeah. And then just have fun. Explore your needs. [David: Yeah.] Be honest with what you need, right? Advocate for those needs. You only live once. Now's the time to explore those things.

Marc: Awesome, I think that's a great ending.

David: I love that. I think that's a romantic way of looking at life, which I think is a nice way to close our Valentine's day week conversation with Preston Lopez. Thank you so much for joining us, for talking with us about ethical non-monogamy and polyamory in a way that I feel like showed me so much of, you know, again, just good ideas as far as healthy relationships with ourselves and with the people that we care about.

Regardless of what other phrases are involved to define what's going on here. And just these, these topics of like boundaries and compersion, you know. I also, of course, want to make sure that we take a second to mention sexual health and safety. Of course, that's a big thing that we emphasize here at Men's Health Foundation with the resources that we have.

I can, I think that it could be fairly self-explanatory that the significance of that, just with having multiple partners in any capacity, but also in taking care of ourselves, right, as a bottom line. and I'm so excited for us to have more conversations with you soon Preston, I'm so happy you're here with us at MHF. Thank you.

Preston: Thank you.

David: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Men's Health Foundation podcast. The information and opinions shared in this podcast are for educational purposes only. For medical advice, please talk with your primary care physician or a medically licensed professional.

Marc: To learn more about Men's Health Foundation, please visit our website at menshealthfound.org. You can also follow us on Instagram, @menshealthfound and subscribe to our YouTube channel.