Men’s Health Foundation Podcast Episode 6 Transcript

Sex and Porn Addiction: Why Is It so Hard to Recognize?

David: Welcome back to the Men's Health Foundation Podcast. I'm David Watson here with [gestures] [Marc: Marc Esposo] and we have our special guest today with us and his name is…

Brandon: Brandon Simpson!

David: Welcome back, Brandon!

Marc: Yay! Welcome back!

[group laughs]

David: Well, thank you so much for joining us again on the podcast. You know, this topic is something that I'm excited that you came to us with this suggestion and I can't wait to dive in. I'd love to have you introduce it to us.

Brandon: Yeah. So today on the podcast, we are going to be talking about sex and porn addiction, which I am passionate about because that's actually-outside of Men's Health foundation, I treat people who have sex and porn addictions and partners of people who have these addictions. On top of treating people I'm also certified to do this. I'm a certified sex addiction therapist that I've had to go through rigorous training.

I've had to do hours of supervision to make sure that I am, quote-unquote, "qualified to do this." And I have a pretty little certificate hanging up in my office that says, "I did it."

[Group laughs]

David: Okay! Very, very, legitimate and very— sounds like a very formal process to go through.

Brandon: It is hours of module training. So I got my training through the International Institute of Trauma and Addiction Professionals, so ITAP for short, and they are very rigorous. It is a- they're based out of Arizona, but everyone from around the world goes to ITAP to be able to get this training. It's four modules. Every module is a Wednesday to Sunday training.

You have to sit there eight hours a day. They teach you in different aspects, etiologies and treatment modalities for not just people who have these addictions or compulsivities but also the partners. We actually learn how to help partners through this. And at the end of it, we have to get paired up with a clinical supervisor who oversees our caseload.

So thankfully, I'm at a clinic who specializes in this. And so my regular clinical supervision counted so I was able to get through it pretty quick.

David: Oh!

Marc: Nice.

David: Well, congrats!

Brandon: Thank you!

Marc: We're in good hands today everyone!

David: Yeah. Yeah. So maybe to get us started, I'd like to ask if you could define for us, what is sex or porn addiction?

Brandon: Yeah. So that's actually really interesting because, you know, and I'll preface this, for the whole podcast that there's actually not just one way to define sex addiction, but there's also multiple words for it. And I think that's because here in the United States, we don't have a formal mental health diagnosis. So if you go into a mental health office or you're seeing a therapist, you will never see on any of your medical records, “sex addiction” or “porn addiction” or things like that, because here in the States, we go off of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.

We don't have that definition. So when I'm talking about sex addiction, you know, there's a bunch of different words for it. It's sexual compulsion, hypersexuality, out of control sexual behavior, problematic sexual behavior. or like the ICD 11, which is the international diagnosing manual that everyone else but us in the States use, they define it as compulsive sexual behavior disorder.

So it is multifaceted. It's multi-worded. but if a patient comes to me and they say, “I have a sex addiction,” or a porn addiction, I really look at how they're using sex or porn to cope with the stresses of their day. You know, if sex is no longer this thing that they do to enhance who they are as a sexual being, it doesn't enhance eroticism or individuality.

It doesn't promote positive interactions. That's usually what I look for in people who are quote-unquote "sex addicts."

David: Okay, so it does seem similar to the idea of like, I mean, I've heard when it comes to other conversations on addiction, maybe starting with an assessment of the impact that this activity is having on, you know, everything else in their life, the things that they care about, the people they care about, their own well-being. And I wanted to sort of bring that up because I think one of the things that's maybe tricky to get a sense of is how to kind of define that line between a healthy relationship with sex or porn and something that would be considered an addiction.

Brandon: Yeah. And it really depends on how it's impacting your spheres of functioning, I like to call it. So, all of our spheres of functioning is our schooling, if we go to school, our relationships. It's our finances, it's the relationships we build, the interpersonal ones that we have. And how do we cope with our emotions, our emotional well-being. And really with sex and porn if it's an addiction, what it does is it starts inhibiting those spheres of functioning. You're not being able to build quality relationships, or you're having a hard time building quality relationships. The sex or porn comes first before the relationships. You're spending outrageous amounts of money on porn subscriptions, on OnlyFans, on, you know, if you decide to go to an exotic dance club, you're spending copious amounts of money over there before you're paying for your bills and your rent.

You know, it's not fulfilling you, after you have a sexual encounter or, you know, you are using porn and masturbating to porn and you have this shame or guilt at the end of it. There's usually  a maladaptive piece to sex and porn.

Marc: For the shame aspect of it. I'm curious do you think that that comes from the actual addiction itself or do you think it could be like you said, like multifaceted, like for example, religious shame or like other things that come into play?

Brandon: Specifically for sex and porn addiction, there is a very clear cycle that I usually can map out in my patients or the clients that come to me. If it's more religious shame, you know, being gay is the ultimate religious shame for some people. We’ve had patients come into my private practice or it's a group practice that I work at and they are like, "I have a sex addiction. I am doing things that I do not align with that don’t work for me."

And we're like, "Okay, so what's going on?" And they're like, "Well, I like watching gay porn." Like, okay, let's go into that a little bit. How often are you watching it? Is it impacting other things? They're like, "No, I just don't like that I'm doing it." Okay. Well then we’ll usually be like, okay, well, “You're not an addict. You're just having a little bit of shame or internalized homophobia.” Let's parse that out. How do we treat that piece of it?

Marc: Gotcha.

Brandon: Whereas the shame for, you know, traditional people who actually do have this addiction or compulsivity, the shame or the guilt tend to come in is because they can't properly cope with the stresses of their day. It kind of fulfills that self-telling prophecies that they've been told their whole life. "They're no good. They're not good enough."

"They're not man enough to be able to deal with their stresses." And they go to these already taboo things, you know, to talk about sex and porn in any instance is taboo. And now they they're going into this taboo world to cope with those stresses.

Marc: Mm. Okay.

David: You know, one of the things that I wanted to maybe also establish is talking about sex and porn. When it comes to porn, it, you know, I'd just be curious like, you know, how you would kind of categorize it any differently than sort of physical sexual activity, or just you know, just kind of this all different, sort of types of experiences people can have that are sexual experiences for them, whether or not they're in person with somebody else.

Brandon: Yeah. So really sex and porn, they're both the same in that they result in the same thing. They're...the reason the person goes into those vices almost. It's the same reason, you know. It's something is unmanageable in their life. It's work. They're not connecting in their relationship.

They feel alone, they're lonely. And you know, what that tends to do is it triggers their belief system. "I am unworthy, I am unlovable, you know that the things that my dad told me, I'm not man enough, those are coming into fruition because I can't make these healthy connections." And that's when they start dipping into this addictive cycle.

And whether it's porn or sex, it always usually ends up in shame or guilt. And that's the new unmanageability that kind of...I like to call it the undertow of a wave. Like if you've ever gotten caught in a wave before, which I have, and it's very scary. I almost died one 4th of July.

Marc: Oh my goodness!

David: Oh my gosh, Brandon!

[Marc and David laugh]

Brandon: I got caught and I just happened to get caught and what it does is the wave crashes down and it pulls you back into the ocean. And as you're trying to pull up from...as you're trying to walk up the shore, up through the sand, out of the water, the wave comes back through and pulls you in.

So that's the cycle that a lot of my patients are going through, and they're trying to find a way to be able to get out of that.

David: Yeah. Of course. You know…oof...[laughs] where do we go from there? The thing that I come back to when you talked about the incident of the person who just didn't like that they were watching gay porn, for example. You know, it would seem to me that maybe it's the case that for gay men, you know, the relationship or the propensity towards sex and porn addiction is a unique experience for them.

Especially you bring up things like shame and feeling like, you know, someone's not good enough, or maybe there's something wrong with them. Something like that. Could you tell us a little more about, you know, just for gay men, especially, how sex and porn addiction, you know, seems to come up?

Brandon: Yeah. And I think actually, we spoke about this right before we hopped on and started recording is that it is inherent. It is weaved into our culture as gay men. As— I think even just as the LGBT community like it is weaved in. And it's sometimes really hard to parse out, because, you know, birds of the same feather flock together.

So you are forming these social groups with other gay men who maybe have their own shame and guilt and feelings around sex and porn and, you know, it tends to influence us. I had a patient not too long ago when we were doing the initial assessment or my intake, and he was like, well, "I don't know if I have an addiction because all my friends are just telling me that I'm just a horny gay man and I'm just having, you know, the appropriate amount of sex for a gay man."

But he's like, "I don't get any joy out of it." [Marc: Mm.] It’s this kind of chasm that a lot of us tend to yell into of, like, "I don't like this, I don't like what I'm doing." But instead of hearing our echo back, we hear the, "You're fine." [Marc: Mm.] And I mean, there's also social media and all the medias that tend to perpetuate us as a sexual...an overtly sexualized group.

David: Mhm...Absolutely.

Marc: What do you think for people who are struggling with that sort of chasm and the sort of rebuttal, that like, you know, “This is not actually happening to you and it's this.” How do you think people, can actually start to manage what they're going through when they struggle with how much they're using porn and/or the ways that they're using sex. What are some tips?

Brandon: Yeah. So it is very different for every patient. But usually the very first things that I suggest to a lot of my patients is a period of sobriety. Let's stop the porn use, let's delete the hookup apps. You know, let's try to maintain a level of abstinence to see when does the desire to watch porn and sex come up.

You know, let's take away the coping mechanism to see what triggers the coping mechanism. And then let's try to find other things to go in its place, so that you can find a more healthy coping mechanism. But it's also boundary work, you know. If you're going to a friend with "I'm having this trouble" and your friend goes, "No, you're not," let's put up a boundary and say, "I really don't appreciate it when I tell you I'm having a problem and you don't believe me. You kind of gaslight me a little bit."

David: That's great! How do we navigate, you know, wanting to be sex positive, judgment-free, and, you know, understanding or being able to appreciate the ideas of sex and porn addiction.

Brandon: Yeah that's a really interesting question because that's a very fine line. And I think what we tend to receive as a gay men, assuming all of us are gay men, I do apologize.

[Group laughs]

Marc: Yes!

[David laughs]

Brandon: I do apologize!

Marc: Correct!

Brandon: You know, the one thing we get is the exaggerated sex positivity. You know, people are sometimes so afraid to be considered homophobic or they're considered not an ally.

David: Sure.

Brandon: If you're like, “Hey, you kind of have a problem.” [Marc: Right.] “Something seems a little off. Hey, you're canceling plans a lot and you say you're going to go hook up or you're putting yourself in dangerous situations where your safety is at risk. You get tested every three months, you're not on PrEP, but you're putting yourself in these situations where you may get HIV, chlamydia, gonorrhea, syphilis. There's things that you say that your belief system is, but you're going actively against that. How can I help you?” Instead, we get the "Pop off queen, do what you want to do."

Marc: Right.

[Brandon and Marc laugh]

David: Yeah. I mean, to your point, though, I mean, I think you had mentioned earlier the idea of it just being something that's a part of the culture that, you know, having relationships or friendships or connections and circles with other gay men who are going through their own, you know, experience with this to where maybe they may be struggling with this themselves and they may not be in a position to be able to identify it or identify it as an issue or be able to offer that kind of support for someone.

I can totally see that. I know that a lot of what we focus on here is testing and treatment. [Brandon: Yeah.] David: Helping to make sure that people get on PrEP just to where we're not spreading STIs, [Brandon: Yeah.] that we're trying to end the epidemics as far as, HIV transmission, and helping people understand things like U=U, to reduce HIV stigma, keep people with HIV in treatment and care.

But this idea of kind of even assessing, you know, someone's relationship to sex and porn and, I think in this instance, because we're talking about STIs, maybe especially sex, although I think that it's...I don't want to say two sides of the same coin, but I think a really close connection there. [Brandon: Yeah.] It’s really interesting to bring up this conversation because I don't think that I've heard it much when it comes to, you know, content for gay men or conversations that gay men have around sex. So I wanted to ask what resources are available for folks?

Brandon: Yeah. So in Los Angeles, like, we are lucky enough to have a plethora of resources. I think within the L.A. County area, there are three places where you can go that are headed by really great people. Actually, when I was doing my certificate program two out of the three were facilitators. And the third biggest one is the one that I work at, but I just knew them by name.

So, it all depends on where you are. So I know out in Santa Monica Westwood-ish area, a woman by the name of Alexandra Katehakis. She has her own clinic called The Center for Healthy Sex, where they do, not just sex and porn addiction, but they do sex therapy for, like, erectile dysfunction and stuff and intimacy disorders and things like that.

I think up in the valley around the Burbank area, Robert Weiss owns a group practice called Seeking Integrity. And then if you are in the Long Beach area, there is Novus Mindful Life. They're the kind of like the triangle in LA County.

David: Oh! Great resources! Yeah. And I think that we'd have an opportunity to link to those with this episode. So thank you for mentioning those, for bringing those up. You know, when it comes to someone who has gotten to a place where they're considering this possibility that maybe this is an addiction for them what are the steps after that? What's the journey look like them for after that? And what could the future look like for them eventually?

Brandon: Yeah. When someone does come in and, you know, they do have this compulsive sexual behavior, this compulsivity around sex or this addiction. What it does for the brain is it builds like the 10 freeway of neural pathways.

It goes straight from, like, the pleasure center of the brain to the occipital portion of the brain. So the vision and stuff like that to view porn or the sensations, wherever it activates in the brain, it creates like the Panama Canal of pathways, like it is a really strong pathway. And what I tell a lot of my patients is this journey is: 1. We have to stop the 10 freeway, literally stop it.

Get everyone off of the freeway, and then we have to destroy the freeway. We have to destroy that big of a freeway. Instead, we need to start taking back roads. You need to start driving through the streets, you need to start developing other neural pathways to start reorientating yourself to sex and porn.

And I think that's the big thing is a lot of people come in, they're like, “Okay, well, I'm never going to be able to have sex and or watch porn again.” Like, no, no, no, no, no. We just need we need to start rebuilding that relationship around it. We have to stop that relationship for a little bit, build new relationships with a bunch of other things, and then we'll be able to rebuild the freeway or the back roads so it's not your main source of travel anymore.

Marc: I like that. That takes a lot of work for sure, you know?

Brandon: It is! It can be an easy process, it's not a very short process. I think they say on average, when I was getting my certificate, they say it's about like 1 to 5 years because it's, you know, and you also have to think of who we are as a society. We are a very big “sex sells” society.

Sex sells, sex is in the forefront of the media, you know, especially for us gay men. We are oversexualized in a lot of our representation in media, or we're represented with a very specific light, and it is really hard to walk through and be able to understand how it impacts you.

What’s the main way, how we have to prove that we're gay? We have to have sex with another man.

David: Yeah!

Brandon: Your emotional connection to a man. Your mental connection to another man is completely invalidated unless you're having sex with another man, then you are gay.

David: Right? That's a good point.

Brandon: And if you're not, if you're not doing that, then your identity is invalidated by everyone you know? Even if you, go into…I know we're in West Hollywood if you go down to the Abbey, you go into, Rocco's and everything. And you're…and you go down there and they're like, “Oh, let's hook up,” and you're like, “Oh, well, I haven't had sex with men.”

They're like, “Well are you even gay?” You know, especially it makes me think of like, people who identify as bisexual. Their bisexuality is automatically discounted if they haven't had sex with a man.

David: Yeah. [Marc: Right!] That's a good point. That's a good point. And I could imagine that goes the same way for bisexual women as well. [Brandon: Mhm.] That is really interesting. And I also think it's so interesting to think about for gay men too. When I think about men in general, I think there's a sense of, you know, the idea of being a bit like brag about your sexual prowess or conquests.

And I’ve perceived we have a version of that in the gay community as well. [Brandon: Yeah.] So to your point, I definitely feel like it's, I don't want to say an uphill battle, but I feel definitely it’s like swimming against the current.

Brandon: It is definitely trying to go against the cultural norm. And every single time, you're having to take one step and then it's two steps, and then it's three steps up the hill, [Marc: Mm] and it's every single time you somehow have to get—you get more and more steps every single time. And you're like, you look up, you're like, “Really? I have to try to climb that now?” [Marc and David both laugh] “Against society?”

And then the whole time you have people dragging you down. [David: Yeah.] People telling you at the same time, “Oh, well, that's not how we do things. That's not what it means to be gay. Like, that's not what happens, girl. What are you doing?”

Marc: Right…totally.

[Group laughs]

David: I wanted to ask you if you feel like with, technology, how that may have impacted sex and porn addiction. I mean, I was just talking to Marc earlier, like, as millennials, I mean, growing up as kids, with the internet access at home, I feel like there was this sense of, you know, the internet was always accessible, even for us.

I can’t imagine for even younger gay men, you know, what their experiences may have been like. And of course, with the advent, after social media, with like, hookup apps, tell us about how that plays into it.

Brandon: Yeah. So we have seen like a boom in these types of compulsivities because of the accessibility. You know, back in the 70s, the 80s and even the early 90s, the only way you could get porn is if you went to the—you went to the magazine store, you went to the video store, you had to go to—you didn't just have to go to the back, but you had to go request it [Marc: Mm.] because they put the gay porn under lock. [David: Wow.] And then like so that adds in that shame to it, because you have to go above all these barriers to get something that you find arousing or pleasing. And even now with the advent of Pornhub being so accessible through your phone, having hook up apps that, say they’re…what is Grindr’s slogan? It's like, “We're trying to make connections.” Girl, we know you're making one kind of connection.

[Laughter]

And even then, that starts blurring the lines. The only way you make a connection is if you're having hookups. [Marc: Mm] It is at your fingertips, you know, and even then, you know, the way we have sex is so quick. It's just not meant for pleasure. It's meant just as a release. And even then, some of the, like the cruising spots and stuff like that our communities tend to gravitate towards, they're in dark alleys. They're not meant for the light. They're not meant to be seen or celebrated or kind of explored. You know, where voyeurism and stuff like that, it— if done safely and in the consciousness of the public, you know, can be something that turns people on.

But we get pushed out to the back and to the alleys and to the random pieces of buildings, to the dark corner of the bathhouse and stuff like that, or the unsolicited brick building where you have no idea what's going on, but it looks like it's locked up. But you see people walking in and out.

David: Yeah, I mean, God…

[Brandon and Marc both laugh]

David: I mean, it's just a testament to, that level of sex positivity where at least, there's a sense of access to help and that it seems as if, at least if this is something that we can talk about and feel less shame around, that's a step in the right direction… [Brandon: Yeah] …in and of itself.

Brandon: And it's starting to build. You know, I think it's that there sometimes is this notion that “Even if I don't want to do it, I should,” and so it's, you know, even for some of those patients, you know, okay, well, if you don't want to, how do we listen to that part of you? How do you voice it and set that boundary of like, “No, that's not what I want so I'm not going to participate,” [Marc: Right.] “Because you want it.”

David: Good point. So I think we've already maybe touched on the idea of there were certain populations more vulnerable to sex and porn addiction, or if that's a widespread condition, or do you feel like there's more to unpack there?

Brandon: So actually, it's really interesting. So when we see the statistics around sex and porn addiction, there's actually a disparity. I read a book about Robert Weiss and it was called Cruise Control. It talks about sex and porn addiction within the gay male community. It was published early 2000, so I think the statistic has definitely changed.

But I think he mentioned in the book that the statistic for heterosexual people, it's only 3 to 5% of their population is considered to have a sex or porn addiction. Whereas for gay and bisexual men that percentage actually jumps to 10%.

Marc: Oh wow.

David: Wow.

Brandon: So the 10% of the population is not expected to, but is predicted to have this very specific relationship to sex and porn.

David: More than double. That's— [Brandon: Yeah.] [Marc: I know.] It's a great title by the way. For the book.

[David and Marc both laugh]

Brandon: Yeah. It’s a really great read.

David: We'll have to link all of these resources after the episode. And I wanted to ask too… intersections present between sex and porn addiction and other addictive behaviors or substances.

Brandon: Yeah. So actually it's really interesting. So when we look at when I was trained to teach sex, not to teach, but to treat sex and porn addicts, you know, we are able to separate them into two different categories. So more of a classical sex addict or more of a contemporary sex addict. More of the classic are some more of the older generations. They are the ones who didn't have the advent of internet. They didn't grow up with smartphones. They were able to utilize it when they needed it, but their addiction didn't really start out with the internet [David: Right.] Whereas contemporary sex addicts really had that internet.

They had, you know, unique, intense, and always novel content at their fingertips. So, you know, what we're starting to see now is, yes, a lot of younger people are coming in with this very specific relationship to sex or porn. But we're also seeing, you know, anxieties, we're seeing depressions, we're seeing, a lot of co-occurring disorders or cross addictions also.

So on top of, you know, sex or porn, there is high popper use. There is alcohol that's always involved with it, there's other substances and it then pushes them to do things that they normally wouldn't do sober or off of the influence of these substances.

David: That makes a lot of sense. For folks that are close to someone that they would perceive may be experiencing sex or porn addiction, what advice would you have for those folks?

Brandon: I always tell my patients, find an accountability buddy. [David: Okay.] Find someone who you trust in. One of my patients taught me this, and I had to listen to the podcast that they listened to because in the podcast it says the opposite of addiction is connection. Addictions tend to isolate us, tend to pull us away from the social connections, and to actively go against that addiction is to pull into those healthy social relationships that you have.

Find that friend that you love to Kiki with. Let them know what you're going through. You know, be honest with them and what they'll do is they'll keep you accountable. “Hey, are you really canceling plans because you're feeling stressed or you really have other things to do? Or are you trying to blow me off because of this you know, X, Y, Z?” If a patient or a person is struggling, they're like, “I feel really triggered. I don't want to go on the apps. I don't want to log in to my only—watch OnlyFans and stuff like that.” They can always reach out to that person: “Hey, can you help me get out of my house, help me change my environment so I can change my state of mind?”

And so it's always finding that one person and always being an ally and, you know, being a support to the person who is going through these very unique relationships with sex and porn.

Marc: I like that. I like the practical tips and especially scripts for people who might know someone who's struggling with it and maybe they don't know how to exactly bring it up to their friend because, again, they don't want to offend anyone or cross the line in any way. So I think that's something good for friends of people.

Brandon: Yeah who's going to serve a better cup of tea than our Good Judies?

[Laughter]

Brandon: To tell us exactly what's going on, than that one person who we know that we really trust?

Marc: Right. Yeah.

David: How about relationships? If someone is in a relationship with someone who is experiencing sex or porn addiction?

Brandon: Yeah. So, it's really interesting. When I am helping a couple and one person does have this addiction or this compulsivity and it doesn't align with their partner's, view of the relationship, I usually tell them both to do individual therapy [David: Mm.] Because what tends to happen is that, you know, a 10, 15, 20-year relationship that one person’s had the addiction the entire time, and the partner has never known about it because the person has been so good at hiding it from their own shame.

You know, their shame has told them to hide it, that they shouldn't be doing that, that this is not right, but that shame kind of perpetuates them into it. [Marc: Right.] So with couples, what I tend to do is we start rebuilding that relational foundation. You know, the one partner, the betrayed partner, you go into therapy, start it, start working on your non-negotiables in the relationship.

What will, what will not fly in the relationship, what your expectations of that relationship is. The person who has this unique addiction to— or relationship to sex and porn. You go do therapy, go to see an individual therapist because they're going to help you become sober. If this is something that you don't want to do, you know, they're going to help you do that.

They're going to help you incorporate your partner's non-negotiables and expectations of this relationship into your treatment. And then we come together and we see how they've come together as a couple, is usually what I tend to do.

David: That's great.

Brandon: And then for patients who have open relationships, I usually tell them to shut it down. [David: Oh!] Let's close the relationship for a little bit. Let's just be monogamous. Doesn’t mean you guys cannot open the relationship again. But for, you know, 90 days, 6 months, you know, let's do it for the year. Just close it down.

Do not give the opportunity to act out, to go seek extracurricular connections or anything like that. And we can talk about opening it back up later and what the parameters and the rules are to that relationship so that we can all be acting within our authenticity and integrity.

Marc: Amazing. As we wrap up, are there any, like, take home messages that you want to leave the viewers with?

Brandon: Key message is you're not alone, that these, you know unique experiences. We all have unique experiences to sex and porn. Your own unique experience, it doesn't define who you are and it is something that you can work on and rebuild. It doesn't define who you are.

Marc: Great advice.

David: Yeah. Let's end on that. That's a good closing.

Brandon: Thank you!

David: Thank you Brandon! We'd love to have you back. [Marc: I know!] Really great topic.

Marc: Yeah.

David: And I did wanna of course, mention, you're a specialist in this and you are a behavioral health specialist here at Men’s Health Foundation. [Brandon: Yes] And are you available currently for new patients?

Brandon: I am currently open, available for new patients. If you are interested in getting an initial assessment or intake, feel free to give us a call. We'll have our call center assess your insurance and stuff like that to see what financial obligations you will have or not have. And then you'll be able to make a decision off of that.

David: Great!

Marc: Great!

David: Thank you so much, Brandon!

Brandon: Of course! Thank you for having me!

David: We'll see you next time!

Brandon: Yes! [mimics a movie slate with hands] Scene!

[Group laughs]